A Seemly Suggestion 39 replies, 25493 views

Kevlar Moneyclips
9/5/2011 11:10:00 PM
Concerning the problem our school systems seem to be having at graduating their complete class with basic writing and logic skills-

As opposed to "No Child Left Behind" I propose "The World Needs Ditchdiggers too"


An inordinate amount of recources in our public school systems are put into preparing the bottom-achieving 50% for college, apparently in order that they can find unskilled work, or be trained on the job for something entirely different anyway. I find this rather silly. By 8th or 9th grade, you can usually tell with a good degree of certainty whether or not someone will excel academically- or struggle to maintain acceptable grades before flunking out of community college or quitting due to pressure. The resources spent pushing many of these children down paths which they will never see through to the end could be better spent elsewhere.

Few of these people even retain information beyond a middle school level anyway, their times would be better spent, both for themselves and the good of society, in apprenticeships and trade schools.

The benefits- The top colleges, unencumbered by students who think that an education involves massive doses of adderall and late night cram sessions, to pass tests and fail to retain information, would be operating at levels heretofore unseen. Our engineers, professors, and political theorists would quickly surpass those in the rest of the world. This can only lead to greater levels of prosperity all around.

The middle colleges, with a properly focused audience and a more directly understood mission, would become a cheaper, more efficient place to teach the skills needed for most of the white collar jobs for which everyone is destined. Better typing, and linguistics, less concentration on theoretical mathematics that they'll forget and more emphasis placed on mental math relating to everyday life. With the middle half of our population now starting to produce at better levels, everything will really get rolling.

The bottom colleges would then be able to start teaching trades. Better carpenters with a wider variety of skills, building more visually appealing, stronger buildings at the same cost, road crews paving roads and patching them to last twice as long, welders who weld quickly and cleanly enough that there's no need to replace them with robots, and fry cooks at Palermos might quit burning my fucking wings.
Brett Weir
9/5/2011 11:48:00 PM
Actually I believe the U.K. pushes for this (I only read the first few paragraphs because im in a rush) and there are a lot more initiative programs in place to train people in carpentry, electrical, plumbing, and various other trades. Its looked upon highly and im for that kind of push for skilled work equal to academic achievement.
Kevlar Moneyclips
9/7/2011 11:38:00 PM
It's not so much emphasizing trades, its recognizing that some people will never get anywhere in school and getting them out of there so that those who will do well can have smaller class sizes filled with their peers and better books to read. Better carpenters is just a bonus.
aboutleaving
9/8/2011 3:27:00 AM
take poor underachieving kids out of school and make them work unskilled jobs forever. sounds lovely.
Tim E. Husk
9/8/2011 9:40:00 AM
Originally posted by: marksaysno

take poor underachieving kids out of school and make them work unskilled jobs forever. sounds lovely.

You're missing the point. Welding is not an unskilled job, nor is carpentry nor plumbing nor construction. Working the register at McDonalds or sweeping floors are unskilled jobs. Trades often pay considerably more and require certification and practical experience, not degrees.

Germany does this - by high school, you are already funneled into one of three tracks. If you don't like where you ended up, you can work hard and try to get into another, but only the top tier goes on to university. The rest go to trade schools, non-university business schools, and technical colleges.

There is one catch, however, and that is that America doesn't have an equal enough playing field at the very beginning to make this a fair option, and there I can partially agree with the above statement. We need many school reforms, and this could only be one of many.

(As an aside, it is telling that nearly everyone still values a college education over trades when data about employability and earnings makes this view increasingly boneheaded. You can make more as a plumber than as an assistant professor.)
Brett Weir
9/8/2011 12:06:00 PM
Electricians and elevator workers here make a ton more than a lot of people I know with a masters.
Dianana
9/8/2011 12:20:00 PM
Originally posted by: Kermit Butts

Electricians and elevator workers here make a ton more than a lot of people I know with a masters.

true dat.
aboutleaving
9/8/2011 12:52:00 PM
Originally posted by: barbarossa

Originally posted by: marksaysno

take poor underachieving kids out of school and make them work unskilled jobs forever. sounds lovely.

You're missing the point. Welding is not an unskilled job, nor is carpentry nor plumbing nor construction. Working the register at McDonalds or sweeping floors are unskilled jobs. Trades often pay considerably more and require certification and practical experience, not degrees.

Germany does this - by high school, you are already funneled into one of three tracks. If you don't like where you ended up, you can work hard and try to get into another, but only the top tier goes on to university. The rest go to trade schools, non-university business schools, and technical colleges.

There is one catch, however, and that is that America doesn't have an equal enough playing field at the very beginning to make this a fair option, and there I can partially agree with the above statement. We need many school reforms, and this could only be one of many.

(As an aside, it is telling that nearly everyone still values a college education over trades when data about employability and earnings makes this view increasingly boneheaded. You can make more as a plumber than as an assistant professor.)

You're right, and I do back more incentives to get people in trade schools and not doing degrees about david beckham etc. I also resent the idea that you need to go to university in order to succeed in life.

But he called it "the world needs ditchdiggers too", used the word unskilled, and I also hate him on a surprisingly personal level considering that this is the internet. I was being overly dismissive. Apologies.
Tim E. Husk
9/8/2011 12:56:00 PM
Originally posted by: marksaysno
ditchdiggers

Agreed, this is not the right way to say it, but it is actually a common rhetorical device in America when talking about this subject. It has been ever since I can remember.
viva hate
9/8/2011 1:35:00 PM
What an amazing and seemingly commonsensical idea.
sidney
9/8/2011 1:41:00 PM
Originally posted by: barbarossa

Originally posted by: marksaysno
ditchdiggers

Agreed, this is not the right way to say it, but it is actually a common rhetorical device in America when talking about this subject. It has been ever since I can remember.


aboutleaving
9/8/2011 1:42:00 PM
Originally posted by: barbarossa

Originally posted by: marksaysno
ditchdiggers

Agreed, this is not the right way to say it, but it is actually a common rhetorical device in America when talking about this subject. It has been ever since I can remember.

Interesting, did not know. The first image I get in my head from ditchdigger is chain gangs or something.
riggard
9/8/2011 1:44:00 PM
I think I would have been better off going to a trade school, but my highschool pushed college hard, so I wound up doing that and dropping out after 2 years.
Kevlar Moneyclips
9/8/2011 9:09:00 PM
Originally posted by: sidney



Originally posted by: barbarossa



Originally posted by: marksaysno
ditchdiggers

Agreed, this is not the right way to say it, but it is actually a common rhetorical device in America when talking about this subject. It has been ever since I can remember.




i was trying to come up with a way to work a hypothetical danny into the argument, but i was too drunk.


points:

-all the potheads I went to high school with now work at all the local pizzerias anyway, despite the schools best efforts to push them into college.

-If you take anything I said to suggest that the building trades are unskilled, you're having a knee jerk reaction of hatred to seeing one of my posts. You are also probably a whiny english faggot. You also probably have though he meant we should eat the irish kids

- Someone arbitrarily desginated certain jobs as low class, and certain jobs as high class, then attempted to create a system where everyone tries their hardest for a high class job, and some people fail at it and get low class jobs.

-Sharplimbed still probably missed the Jonathan Swift reference

- The corporate world has no parallel to the "no child left behind" plan. If someone has to hold your hand through high school so that you can repeat all your college courses so that you can graduate bottom of your class at Montco, noone's gonna fucking hire you anyway
aboutleaving
9/9/2011 5:19:00 AM
I wasn't referring to skilled trades as unskilled work, I was choosing to focus on the "unskilled" part. It was pretty kneejerk though. And you're right, I don't even know anything about jonathan swift really. I'm an awful human being.
white trash dirt bag
9/9/2011 12:14:00 PM
Originally posted by: Kevlar Moneyclips

Concerning the problem our school systems seem to be having at graduating their complete class with basic writing and logic skills-

As opposed to "No Child Left Behind" I propose "The World Needs Ditchdiggers too"

An inordinate amount of recources in our public school systems are put into preparing the bottom-achieving 50% for college, apparently in order that they can find unskilled work, or be trained on the job for something entirely different anyway. I find this rather silly. By 8th or 9th grade, you can usually tell with a good degree of certainty whether or not someone will excel academically- or struggle to maintain acceptable grades before flunking out of community college or quitting due to pressure. The resources spent pushing many of these children down paths which they will never see through to the end could be better spent elsewhere.

Few of these people even retain information beyond a middle school level anyway, their times would be better spent, both for themselves and the good of society, in apprenticeships and trade schools.

The benefits- The top colleges, unencumbered by students who think that an education involves massive doses of adderall and late night cram sessions, to pass tests and fail to retain information, would be operating at levels heretofore unseen. Our engineers, professors, and political theorists would quickly surpass those in the rest of the world. This can only lead to greater levels of prosperity all around.

The middle colleges, with a properly focused audience and a more directly understood mission, would become a cheaper, more efficient place to teach the skills needed for most of the white collar jobs for which everyone is destined. Better typing, and linguistics, less concentration on theoretical mathematics that they'll forget and more emphasis placed on mental math relating to everyday life. With the middle half of our population now starting to produce at better levels, everything will really get rolling.

The bottom colleges would then be able to start teaching trades. Better carpenters with a wider variety of skills, building more visually appealing, stronger buildings at the same cost, road crews paving roads and patching them to last twice as long, welders who weld quickly and cleanly enough that there's no need to replace them with robots, and fry cooks at Palermos might quit burning my fucking wings.


i think you're spot on about teaching more employable trades at community colleges. right now, there is usually only one or two departments at most, usually something like welding or auto repair depending on the town. but why not construction? a class in cement and rebar, a class in construction carpentry, a class in road paving, etc., all with certifications that employers could count on that person at least knowing the basics before hiring. great idea, and should be tucked into any economic recovery plan.

9th grade is a bit early to judge a kid's progress, though. i think you could still get kids started there, with better, more expansive shop programs, but i've known plenty of people who fucked up in high school but later went on to do well in college and graduate school.

and not to hit a tired note again, but if universities were free, they would be so much harder to get into with so many more applicants, that the filter you suggest would happen naturally, with only the smartest people going to the harvards, and the george bushes going to trade schools even if they showed up to ditchdigging 101 with silver shovels.
Shostakovich
9/9/2011 12:28:00 PM
A Snipely Thread
Shostakovich
9/9/2011 12:29:00 PM
also, this concept is dead on and I wish there was a way to easily implement it
white trash dirt bag
9/9/2011 12:36:00 PM
also, jonathan swift rules. sharplimbed, catch up on your reading, damnit. 'a modest proposal' is a good place to start. the fourth book of 'gulliver's travels' is also awesome and can be read on its own as you probably already know the rest of the story.

also,

Helter Skelter

by Jonathan Swift ca. 1731

Now the active young Attornies
Briskly travel on their Journies,
Looking big as any Gyants,
On the Horses of their Clients;
Like so many little Mars's,
With their Tilters at their Arses,
Brazen hilted lately burnish'd,
And with Harness-Buckles furnish'd;
And with Whips and Spurs so neat,
And with Jockey-Coats compleat;
And with Boots so very grazy
And with Saddles eke so easy
And with Bridles fine and gay,
Bridles borrow'd for a Day,
Bridles destin'd far to roam,
Ah! never to return Home;
And with Hats so very big, Sir,
And with powder'd Caps and Wigs, Sir:
And with Ruffles to be shewn,
Cambrick Ruffles not their own;
And with Holland Shirts so white,
Shirts becoming to the sight,
Shirts be wrought with different Letters,
As belonging to their betters:
With their pretty tinsel'd Boxes,
Gotten from their dainty Doxies,
And with Rings so very trim,
Lately taken out of Lim—
And with very little Pence,
And as very little Sence:
With some Law but little Justice,
Having stolen from mine Hostess,
From the Barber and the Cutler,
Like the Soldier from the Sutler;
From the Vintner and the Taylor,
Like the Felon from the Jailer,
Into this and t'other County,
Living on the publick Bounty;
Thorough Town and thorough Village,
All to plunder, all to pillage;
Thorow Mountains thorow Vallies;
Thorow stinking Lanes and Allies;
Some to Cuckold Farmers Spouses,
And make merry in their Houses;
Some to tumble Country-Wenches
On their Rushy Beds and Benches,
And, if they begin a Fray,
Draw their Swords and run away:
All to murder Equity,
And to take a double Fee;
Till the People all are quiet
And forget to broil and riot,
Low in Pocket, Cow'd in Courage,
Safely glad to sup their Porridge,
And Vacation's over—then
Hey for Dublin Town agen!
Kevlar Moneyclips
9/15/2011 8:22:00 PM
Originally posted by: Shostakovich

also, this concept is dead on and I wish there was a way to easily implement it


- No compulsory education past 9th grade

-Labor camps are set up where workers, skilled and unskilled are given room, board, and a stipend. The vague goals of this program are to supplement the use of heavy machinery in public works projects with manpower and to offset the high costs of some of the more desirable but labor intensive construction practices- we'll see plastered walls, reclaimed brick, hand cut stone, hand carved mouldings, etc in public buildings. Abandoned buildings can be rehabilitated and restored, unused urban space can be turned to food production, etc.

-Serious disruption of school is considered a criminal offense- that 7.5 million dollar camera system could have sent a lot of deserving kids to college.

-Start getting poor marks in ninth grade? You're tested and steered into a trade school where you show potential. You decide you don't want to learn boiler making, and you want to bring guns to school? Congratulations, you're an asbestos removal technician, and you now owe the state ten years of asbestos removal at a siginificantly reduced pay rate.
fuckin hell yeah!!
9/15/2011 8:29:00 PM
bring back Hitler
LEATHERFACE
9/15/2011 8:33:00 PM
I agree with your starting post, moneyclips, it's both practical and efficient and would gaurantee high yield. "Labor camps" is a toxic word, if I'm not mistaken I think that "guilds" would be an appropriate idea/word for learning specialized trades. I also heavily agree with you that kids who disrupt school need stricter punishment on the state level. Overall, good thread. I strongly believe, also, that standardized testing is destroying a lot of potential in the field of education.
Aunt_Pee
9/15/2011 8:34:00 PM
did not read


anything in this thread
fuckin hell yeah!!
9/15/2011 8:37:00 PM
if people wnated money so badly they should have been born rich
Walktheblock
9/15/2011 8:37:00 PM
American education is already has extremely low standards, it can't get much worse anyways.
Aunt_Pee
9/15/2011 8:40:00 PM
you faggots stop replying so i dont have to keep opening this thread, not reading what youre saying, shit posting and exiting the thread.

thanks.