Originally posted by: TravisAssault

Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so mindbogglingly complex could evolve purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as a final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God. The argument goes something like this:
"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing".
"But," says man, "the entire universe is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It proves you exist and so therefore you don't. QED."
"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
"Oh, that was easy," says man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white, and gets killed on the next zebra crossing.

Originally posted by: barbarossa

Another note on the concept of complexity that I think has not been raised yet - probability is always a terrible element to bring into this argument, because a) billions of organisms over billions of years render estimated probabilities less impressive than initial impressions suggest, and b) something only has to happen once to HAVE happened, again rendering probability not very useful when thousands of low-probability occurrences stack up over time.

Coupled with the long-discredited notion of irreducible complexity, there aren't a lot of good arguments left.

Originally posted by: Dwarn

"Even if our best secular scientific theories about the origins of the universe and the life within it are totally wrong they are structured in such a way that evidence will eventually prove them wrong, and lead towards something that is right. "

Mainstream science is wrong; real science is being ignored. Why is Albert Einstein so commonly known but his colleague Immanuel Velikovsky not known? Mainstream science is gate-kept science. University graduates are not permitted to become scientists unless they go along with the agenda and agree to dismiss the immense wealth of evidence of ancient alien intervention on this planet out of hand as crazy, conspiracy theory.

Originally posted by: i am skimble

Originally posted by: barbarossa

Another note on the concept of complexity that I think has not been raised yet - probability is always a terrible element to bring into this argument, because a) billions of organisms over billions of years render estimated probabilities less impressive than initial impressions suggest, and b) something only has to happen once to HAVE happened, again rendering probability not very useful when thousands of low-probability occurrences stack up over time.

Coupled with the long-discredited notion of irreducible complexity, there aren't a lot of good arguments left.

this.

the bismuth isotope Bi-209 has a half-life of 1.9×10^19 years. If you had two Bi-209 atoms you could expect one to decay into thallium-205 and an alpha particle within an amount of time that is 1 billion times the age of the universe. Given that fact, this event is so unlikely to ever happen during the window of time that humans exist to observe it, one might say it doesn't happen at all--yet there are not 2 Bi-209 atoms in the universe. There is actually enough Bi-209 just on Earth that it has been observed occurring many many times.

that's probably a horrible analogy for this audience, but oh well.

Originally posted by: barbarossa

Originally posted by: i am skimble

Originally posted by: barbarossa

Another note on the concept of complexity that I think has not been raised yet - probability is always a terrible element to bring into this argument, because a) billions of organisms over billions of years render estimated probabilities less impressive than initial impressions suggest, and b) something only has to happen once to HAVE happened, again rendering probability not very useful when thousands of low-probability occurrences stack up over time.

Coupled with the long-discredited notion of irreducible complexity, there aren't a lot of good arguments left.

this.

the bismuth isotope Bi-209 has a half-life of 1.9×10^19 years. If you had two Bi-209 atoms you could expect one to decay into thallium-205 and an alpha particle within an amount of time that is 1 billion times the age of the universe. Given that fact, this event is so unlikely to ever happen during the window of time that humans exist to observe it, one might say it doesn't happen at all--yet there are not 2 Bi-209 atoms in the universe. There is actually enough Bi-209 just on Earth that it has been observed occurring many many times.

that's probably a horrible analogy for this audience, but oh well.

It's a great analogy - in fact, it's an EXAMPLE, even better. Unfortunately, only people who already understand the issue will agree.