forum Politics and Society ›› Religion and the founding fathers ›› new reply Post Reply
Kadesh

Kadesh
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May 31 2007 5:24 PM   QuickQuote Quote  
It seems like no one here really knows. There are quotes from the same founding fathers who completely contradict each other. One person screams they were deists, others say they were hardcore Christians. Either way we know one of the sides is misquoting our founding fathers.

I'm not going to dive into the comments of our founding fathers because there are, for some odd reason, extreme contradictions. I'd like to post some very public statements that anyone can get their hands and confirm. These don't exactly prove the religion of the founding fathers, but they do indicate, at the very least, which direction the founding fathers may have been leaning. Lets remember that they all approved these statements (minus the constitution of deleware, but they were allowed to make this oath)...

Liberty Bell Inscription:
" Proclaim liberty throughout the land and to all the inhabitants thereof"
-Leviticus 25:10

Article 22 of the constitution of Delaware (1776)
Required all officers, besides taking an oath of allegiance, to make and subscribe to the following declaration:
"I, [name], do profess faith in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ His only Son, and in the Holy Ghost, one God, blessed for evermore; and I do acknowledge the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by divine inspiration."

Declaration of Independence
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--

LastOnePicked
in all my unglory
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May 31 2007 5:31 PM   QuickQuote Quote  
Originally posted by:matt.

Either way we know one of the sides is misquoting our founding fathers.

No...we don't. We know that they said a lot of different things about religion. And we know a lot of people (on both sides) have agendas where they try to paint things in black and white. When really, the truth is somewhere in the gray area.
Kadesh
Kadesh
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May 31 2007 5:33 PM   QuickQuote Quote  
I don't think that a group could have so much passion and be in the gray. If you think no one is misquoting anything, you have some tough explaining to do about some of the founding fathers quotes about Jesus.
LastOnePicked
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May 31 2007 5:36 PM   QuickQuote Quote  
Originally posted by:matt.

I don't think that someone could have so much passion and be in the gray.

Of course not...because you're one of the people who sees everything in black and white. That's why you're trying to paint the founding fathers as flawless christians...and making excuses as to why this country's laws should be based on your christian values.
coastal elite
hates chicken.
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May 31 2007 5:38 PM   QuickQuote Quote  
Originally posted by:matt.

It seems like no one here really knows.


Oh, the irony.

And anyone can feel free to correct me (besides Matt), but weren't the founding fathers Deists? I'm pretty sure Deism isn't a real word, much less a religion.
LastOnePicked
in all my unglory
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May 31 2007 5:38 PM   QuickQuote Quote  
Originally posted by:matt.

I don't think that a group could have so much passion and be in the gray. If you think no one is misquoting anything, you have some tough explaining to do about some of the founding fathers quotes about Jesus.

Something to keep in mind...even though they're the idyllic founding fathers and everything...we're essentially talking about politicians. Politicians say contradictory things all the time.
lottery hypnosis
Prof. Mammalchicke
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May 31 2007 5:48 PM   QuickQuote Quote  
please move this thread to the religion forum.
crunkmoose
Fuck Nazis.
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May 31 2007 6:34 PM   QuickQuote Quote  
"Do you know what you're asking? You're asking for everyone in the forum to be all pissed off again because YOU want to start another religious thread. How about we wait a month and post it so we can talk about politics for a little while. Then when we've all simmered down some, I'll post something. If you would prefer me give you something now, pm me and we'll talk. Sorry, that's my final answer. I won't say anything more about this. "

YOU FUCKING HYPOCRITE!
Tml Matus
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May 31 2007 7:12 PM   QuickQuote Quote  
'founding fathers' ... that right there is why i think USA is slightly fucked ...
lottery hypnosis
Prof. Mammalchicke
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May 31 2007 8:30 PM   QuickQuote Quote  
also:

Thomas Jefferson

"I have examined all the known superstitions of the world and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth."

"Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and imposters led by Paul, the first great corruptor of the teachings of Jesus."

"The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind and adulturated by artificial constructions into a contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves...these clergy in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ."

"I have sworn an oath on the altar of God of eternal hostility to tyranny."

"[T]o compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves, is sinful and tyrannical; that even the forcing of him to support this or that teacher of his own religious persuasion, is depriving him of the comfortable liberty of giving his contributions to the particular pastor whose morals he would make his pattern, and whose powers he feels most persuasive to righteousness....Be it therefore enacted by the General Assembly, That no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess and by argument to maintain their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities."

--Excerpts from Jefferson's Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom, 1786

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church and State."

--Letter to the Danbury (Conn.) Baptist Association, January 1, 1802

"I do not believe it is for the interest of religion to invite the civil magistrate to direct its exercises, its discipline, or its doctrines; nor of the religious societies, that the General Government should be invested with the power of effecting any uniformity of time or matter among them. Fasting and prayer are religious exercises; the enjoining them an act of discipline. Every religious society has a right to determine for itself the times for these exercises, and the objects proper for them, according to their own particular tenets; and the right can never be safer than in their hands, where the Constitution has deposited it."

--Letter to Samuel Miller, January 23, 1808

John Adams

"Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines and Oaths, and whole cartloads of other trumpery that we find religion encumbered with in these days?"

"The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity."

Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli. Article 11 states "The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion."

Thomas Paine

"Here is an order, attributed to 'God', butcher the boys."
.
"Of all the tyrannies that affect mankind, tyranny in religion is the worst."
.
"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half of the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind.
.
"What is it the New Testament teaches us? To believe that the Almighty committed debauchery with a woman engaged to be married; and the belief of this debauchery is called faith."
.
"Take away from Genesis the belief that Moses was the author, on which only the strange belief that it is the word of God has stood, and there remains nothing of Genesis but an anonymous book of stories, fables, and traditionary or invented absurdities, or of downright lies."
.
"We do not admit the authority of the church with respect to its pretended infallibility, its manufactured miracles, its setting itself up to forgive sins. It was by propagating that belief and supporting it with fire that she kept up her temporal power."
.
"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any Church that I know of. My own mind is my own Church. Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."
.
"The story of Jesus Christ appearing after he was dead is the story of an apparition, such as timid imaginations can always create in vision, and credulity believe. Stories of this kind had been told of the assassination of Julius Caesar."

"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."
.
"The study of theology, as it stands in the Christian churches, is the study of nothing; it is founded on nothing; it rests on no principles; it proceeds by no authority; it has no data; it can demonstrate nothing; and it admits of no conclusion."


Benjamin Franklin

"I think vital religion has always suffered when orthodoxy is more regarded than virtue. The scriptures assure me that at the last day we shall not be examined on what we thought but what we did."
- letter to his father, 1738

". . . Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that they wrought an effect on my quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist."
.

"I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father, expects or requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is even infinitely above it."
- "Articles of Belief and Acts of Religion", 1728
.

"I wish it (Christianity) were more productive of good works ... I mean real good works ... not holy-day keeping, sermon-hearing ... or making long prayers, filled with flatteries and compliments despised by wise men, and much less capable of pleasing the Deity." - Works, Vol. VII, p. 75
.

"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in the Pagans, but practiced it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution in the Romish Church, but practiced it upon the Puritans. They found it wrong in Bishops, but fell into the practice themselves both here (England) and in New England."
.

"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches." -in Poor Richard's Almanac
.

"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." -in Poor Richard's Almanac
.

"When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself so that its professors are obliged to call for the help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one."
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"I looked around for God's judgments, but saw no signs of them."
.

"In the affairs of the world, men are saved not by faith, but by the lack of it."

"It is much to be lamented that a man of Franklin's general good character and great influence should have been an unbeliever in Christianity, and also have done as much as he did to make others unbelievers" (Priestley's Autobiography)

James Madison

"Experience witness that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." - 1785
.

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." -letter to Wm. Bradford, April 1, 1774
.

"Ecclesiastical establishments tend to great ignorance and corruption, all of which facilitate the execution of mischievous projects."
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"The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries." -1803 letter objecting use of gov. land for churches
Eric Paradox
east bay grease
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May 31 2007 8:34 PM   QuickQuote Quote  
Originally posted by: lottery hypnosis

please move this thread to the religion forum.

oh crap - we don't have one!!!!



the only person who really argues about religion here is matt. all of the arguments we have about religion here, are related to him. a forum about religion, will just be a forum full of matt.
lottery hypnosis
Prof. Mammalchicke
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May 31 2007 8:47 PM   QuickQuote Quote  
hmm....again, i respectfully disagree. i for one would start threads there, about religions i want to know more about, zorastrianism, for instance, taoism, etc.

matt would only be the only one there if it was a 'christianity' forum - but a 'religion/spirituality' forum, i think would get a lot of people that post other places, and a lot who won't post in p&s because of the mattfactor, and also because of the often contentious nature of some of the discussions.
Kadesh
Kadesh
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June 1 2007 2:03 AM   QuickQuote Quote  
wow, this thread is ruined. everyone put up a wall and started screaming. no one bothered to actually confront the issue, nice guys.
tom.
^__^
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June 1 2007 2:07 AM   QuickQuote Quote  
Originally posted by: lottery hypnosis

hmm....again, i respectfully disagree. i for one would start threads there, about religions i want to know more about, zorastrianism, for instance, taoism, etc.

matt would only be the only one there if it was a 'christianity' forum - but a 'religion/spirituality' forum, i think would get a lot of people that post other places, and a lot who won't post in p&s because of the mattfactor, and also because of the often contentious nature of some of the discussions.

DON'T POST IN THREADS REGARDING RELIGION AND THEY WILL GO AWAY. -OR- IF THEY DO NOT GO AWAY THEN PEOPLE MUST WANT TO DISCUSS MATTERS DEALING WITH RELIGION.
lottery hypnosis
Prof. Mammalchicke
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June 1 2007 1:09 PM   QuickQuote Quote  
Originally posted by:tom.

Originally posted by: lottery hypnosis

hmm....again, i respectfully disagree. i for one would start threads there, about religions i want to know more about, zorastrianism, for instance, taoism, etc.

matt would only be the only one there if it was a 'christianity' forum - but a 'religion/spirituality' forum, i think would get a lot of people that post other places, and a lot who won't post in p&s because of the mattfactor, and also because of the often contentious nature of some of the discussions.

DON'T POST IN THREADS REGARDING RELIGION AND THEY WILL GO AWAY. -OR- IF THEY DO NOT GO AWAY THEN PEOPLE MUST WANT TO DISCUSS MATTERS DEALING WITH RELIGION.





i don't get why people are so resistant to the idea of a seperate religion/spirituality forum. there's a 'teen' forum, there's at least half a dozen forums right now with less than ten threads in them, a few with none.
i don't know the computer work involved, so maybe its tons of hours of programming, i don't know. whatever. i don't care that much, i just see it as a fairly simple, obvious solution.

but if you think the problem here is people posting in religion threads, i think the reverse is true; it's people like matt bringing religion into every other issue.
asdfjasfjas
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June 1 2007 1:54 PM   QuickQuote Quote  
This thread is stupid. The phrase is founding fathers because its a plural group, there were a lot of them. So they had different views. Some of them followed christian beliefs, others were deists, some were even adverse to religion as a whole or bounced around between them. You are wrong if you claim the founding fathers were any of them.
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