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white trash dirt bag

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April 30 2005 4:10 PM   QuickQuote Quote  
i don't know about this "support our troops right or wrong" bullshit. [i think cher came up with that line of rhetoric during the first gulf war and she is a diagnosed retard]

but supporting the troops fighting a war you don't agree with is like saying "i don't know if that black guy raped that white southern girl, but i support you all lynching him."

if you support the war, fine. there are plenty of reasons to. saddam was a bastard and the bathists were very bad men. but again, there are very bad men everywhere.

but if you don't support it, and don't think it was justified, then it is murder.
even killing bad people without a trial is murder. i don't see much middle ground here.

and the "collateral" casualties that make up the majority of iraqis killed, are also murder victims. [when someone is tried for a drive-by shooting, they aren't just charged with killing the people they 'meant' to kill. they are charged with a count of homicide for every single person killed.] so given that saddam is still alive, it is the iraqi people that are being lynched for his and the bathists' crimes.

but again, if you support it, then all is well. i just hope people aren't saying they support it because the alternative would be too much to bear.

because if you don't support it, and you don't think it was justified, then it is murder. and there's nothing that says you have to support the people that are too stupid to know better and are over there being used to commit murder so that george bush can manipulate the oil market and make a ton of money for the texans that own him. there's nothing that says you shouldn't hate them for what they do or that you have to support them no matter what. every hit man and thug is just as stupid, but stupidity is no excuse for what they do.

it's bad enough you already support them with billions of your tax dollars.

but again, if the war is justified, and it may even be so, then they are all heroes. that's a much nicer thought, much more attractive.
but if it isn't, they are murderers for hire or at best a lynch mob.
Didymos
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May 1 2005 4:01 AM   QuickQuote Quote  
I don't agree with your black and white assessment of the situation. Many of these soldiers are doing what they believe to be right. Perhaps they are misguided, but their hearts are in the right place.

Comparing them to hitmen is a poor analogy, as is comparing them to a lynch mob. Hitmen are motivated by selfishness and profit, and lynch mobs are usually motivated by prejudice and irrational hatred. These soldiers, on the other hand, are driven by a desire to protect the American people and their hopes that their actions will pave the way for democracy in Iraq. This could not be said of all soldiers, but it is undoubtedly true of many of them.

If you are opposed to the war, then you shouldn't support the war. But that has nothing to do with supporting the soldiers. In what sense should we NOT support the soldiers? You didn't make it very clear in your tirade how those who oppose the war should treat the soldiers.

As for innocent civilians being killed, there is really no way to completely avoid that in a state of war. I've read accounts of soldier misconduct and operations that would have resulted in fewer lives lost had they been more effectively carried out, but to assert that a soldier in a just war is no better than someone who engages in a drive-by shooting is ludicrous.
crunkmoose
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May 1 2005 10:01 AM   QuickQuote Quote  
"I don't agree with your black and white assessment of the situation. Many of these soldiers are doing what they believe to be right. Perhaps they are misguided, but their hearts are in the right place. "

I'm sure many in the SS believed they were doing what they thought was right. I, for one, refuse to say something is right or acceptable just because someone else believes their actions to be right. War is not a game or an abstract concept. People are dying.

"If you are opposed to the war, then you shouldn't support the war. But that has nothing to do with supporting the soldiers. In what sense should we NOT support the soldiers? You didn't make it very clear in your tirade how those who oppose the war should treat the soldiers."

Very good question.

"As for innocent civilians being killed, there is really no way to completely avoid that in a state of war."

Which is yet another reason that war should not be taken lightly or declared when it is not absolutely necessary.

"I've read accounts of soldier misconduct and operations that would have resulted in fewer lives lost had they been more effectively carried out, but to assert that a soldier in a just war is no better than someone who engages in a drive-by shooting is ludicrous."

I guess that depends on whether or not this war was just... I, along with most of the world, DO NOT feel it was just or necessary.
white trash dirt bag
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May 1 2005 11:52 AM   QuickQuote Quote  
Originally posted by:Lament Configuration

I don't agree with your black and white assessment of the situation. Many of these soldiers are doing what they believe to be right. Perhaps they are misguided, but their hearts are in the right place.

Comparing them to hitmen is a poor analogy, as is comparing them to a lynch mob. Hitmen are motivated by selfishness and profit, and lynch mobs are usually motivated by prejudice and irrational hatred. These soldiers, on the other hand, are driven by a desire to protect the American people and their hopes that their actions will pave the way for democracy in Iraq. This could not be said of all soldiers, but it is undoubtedly true of many of them.

If you are opposed to the war, then you shouldn't support the war. But that has nothing to do with supporting the soldiers. In what sense should we NOT support the soldiers? You didn't make it very clear in your tirade how those who oppose the war should treat the soldiers.

As for innocent civilians being killed, there is really no way to completely avoid that in a state of war. I've read accounts of soldier misconduct and operations that would have resulted in fewer lives lost had they been more effectively carried out, but to assert that a soldier in a just war is no better than someone who engages in a drive-by shooting is ludicrous.






i understand that it may not seem so black and white at first glance, and looking at the post now it almost seems a little too strident and even scares me, so i appreciate your questioning of it, but the more i thought about it, the more it seemed to be about right.
this is not some kind of game where if you call "war" it's o.k. to kill people. was iraq an imminent threat? was war a LAST resort?
and as for 'protecting the country' or this holy crusade to bring democracy to the darkest corners of the world, do you really believe that yourself? hiding behind that innocent-little-boy scout image is really just a little too homoerotic for me to entertain. no full grown man has the right to be ignorant, and to act on that ignorance with deadly force.

if the u.s. wants to police the world and get rid of bad people everywhere, that may even be worth considering. maybe we could hop around the globe with our 120,000 troop force, to every country with severe human rights violations, even our allies, and make the situation right. that would be good and i'd support that.

but to selectively choose conflicts based on economic interests is wrong. and the people killed in the process deserve to have this considered. i don't think it's any coincidence that every oil money republican president conducts a foreign policy that results in driving the price of oil up and paying the industry that finances them back tenfold.
[no wonder dubya played footsy and got all smoochy and hand holding with the saudi prince last week. they just won the fucking lottery together. i kept expecting them to just start making out.]

and if sadam really was a hitler and poised to take over the world and show up with an invading flotilla on the beach in atlantic city, then we did the right thing. but if he was just another dictator of just another banana republic that just happened to have a LOT of oil, then we pretty much just decided he was a sleazebag and his country deserved to be mugged without guilt. kicking over a few mothers and daughters on the way to his purse was just "collateral." to us, anyway.

so yeah, just because someone puts on a clean uniform with shiny buttons and says a prayer to jesus before he goes out to kill, that doesn't make the people being killed any less dead. of the over 100,000 iraquis killed during this war, the vast majority were civilian 'collateral' casualties, and given the fi
Didymos
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May 1 2005 2:37 PM   QuickQuote Quote  
Originally posted by:Golgotha

"but to assert that a soldier in a just war is no better than someone who engages in a drive-by shooting is ludicrous"

He's saying that a soldier in an unjust war is as bad as someone like that though, not in a just war.



Even in an unjust war, if the soldier believes that what s/he is doing is morally just, then the soldier is still better than someone who engages in a drive-by shooting.
Didymos
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May 1 2005 2:45 PM   QuickQuote Quote  
Originally posted by:crunkmoose

"I don't agree with your black and white assessment of the situation. Many of these soldiers are doing what they believe to be right. Perhaps they are misguided, but their hearts are in the right place. "

I'm sure many in the SS believed they were doing what they thought was right. I, for one, refuse to say something is right or acceptable just because someone else believes their actions to be right. War is not a game or an abstract concept. People are dying.



The morality of the war in Iraq is a bit more ambiguous than the example of the SS that you provide. You and I both disagree with the war. However, I'm sure we would both acknowledge that the goals of many of the soldiers fighting in Iraq are commendable, namely: 1) getting rid of Saddam and 2) helping to secure the emergence of democracy in Iraq. Those may not have been the primary goals of our administration, but those are indeed the goals of many of the soldiers fighting this war. Putting them on the same level as common thugs, as the originator of this thread does, is disgraceful.

Originally posted by:crunkmoose
"As for innocent civilians being killed, there is really no way to completely avoid that in a state of war."

Which is yet another reason that war should not be taken lightly or declared when it is not absolutely necessary.



I agree with you completely. My point was that even in a just war, there are going to be civilian casualties. A soldier doesn't automatically become a bad person because some innocent people get caught up in a conflict and are inadvertently hurt or killed.
white trash dirt bag
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May 1 2005 2:46 PM   QuickQuote Quote  
it's their reality, not their beliefs that is in question.
and, actually, someone who can work themself up into doing a drive by probably thinks they are doing the 'right' thing for a given situation too.
Didymos
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May 1 2005 2:51 PM   QuickQuote Quote  
Originally posted by:white trash dirt bag
as to your last point, and the title of the post, if you do or don't support the war, that has EVERYTHING to do with supporting the soldiers or not. if you do, then make them pancakes and let them fuck you dogstyle when they get back from their tour of duty.
but if you don't, call them out as assholes and murderers. i know this treatment fell out of vogue after the vietnam war, but maybe if it didn't, we wouldn't be doing it all over again.
or if that's too much for you, how about just not kissing their asses 24/7 and maybe questioning their behavior to their faces without being called unpatriotic?
if they aren't thugs and are just misguided, that ignorance needs to be confronted and dispelled. you owe it to them and their potential or past victims.
and if and when you do confront them on this point, and they maybe kick your ass and laugh, you'll know exactly whether or not they are the kind of people that are worth your loving concern.



I'm all for disagreeing with the war openly and debating the people who are fighting the war, but if you approach them in a condescending fashion, calling them ignorant murderers, then what good will that do? Are they likely to listen to you? No, of course not. That's not the best way to go about changing someone's mind.
white trash dirt bag
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May 1 2005 2:52 PM   QuickQuote Quote  
and yeah, sure there ar civilian casualties in just wars, but civilian casulties in an unjust war should be considered differently.
Didymos
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May 1 2005 2:54 PM   QuickQuote Quote  
Originally posted by:white trash dirt bag

it's their reality, not their beliefs that is in question.
and, actually, someone who can work themself up into doing a drive by probably thinks they are doing the 'right' thing for a given situation too.



Perhaps so. But seeing as how a drive-by shooting is rarely more than an act of petty vengeance, I still maintain it is a poor analogy. Granted, there are likely a lot of soldiers fighting the war for the same reason. They are pissed off because of 9/11 or whatever and want to "kill some towelheads" in revenge. But I'm referring primarily to the soldiers who are are motivated more by a desire to make the world safer, for Americans and Iraqis alike.
Didymos
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May 1 2005 2:56 PM   QuickQuote Quote  
Originally posted by:white trash dirt bag

and yeah, sure there ar civilian casualties in just wars, but civilian casulties in an unjust war should be considered differently.



The problem with this is that differentiating a just war from an unjust war is not so easy to do. I'm against the war in Iraq, but I can understand why some people support it. Consequently, even though I don't mind speaking out against it, I'm a bit more diplomatic in doing so than you would probably be.
white trash dirt bag
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May 1 2005 3:42 PM   QuickQuote Quote  
Originally posted by:Lament Configuration

Originally posted by:white trash dirt bag
as to your last point, and the title of the post, if you do or don't support the war, that has EVERYTHING to do with supporting the soldiers or not. if you do, then make them pancakes and let them fuck you dogstyle when they get back from their tour of duty.
but if you don't, call them out as assholes and murderers. i know this treatment fell out of vogue after the vietnam war, but maybe if it didn't, we wouldn't be doing it all over again.
or if that's too much for you, how about just not kissing their asses 24/7 and maybe questioning their behavior to their faces without being called unpatriotic?
if they aren't thugs and are just misguided, that ignorance needs to be confronted and dispelled. you owe it to them and their potential or past victims.
and if and when you do confront them on this point, and they maybe kick your ass and laugh, you'll know exactly whether or not they are the kind of people that are worth your loving concern.



I'm all for disagreeing with the war openly and debating the people who are fighting the war, but if you approach them in a condescending fashion, calling them ignorant murderers, then what good will that do? Are they likely to listen to you? No, of course not. That's not the best way to go about changing someone's mind.





they aren't going to listen anyway. that's part of the point. i don't know if you know a lot of military people but i do and they tend to tell you what they think of you pretty quickly and uncensored. just try meeting them with equal terms.

i'm not talking about changing anyone. i would have if i could have. but they're gone. and if it was my brother i'd have made sure he didn't pass the pee test. and if he did go, he'd still be my brother, even if he turned into stalin.
and of course they have to stick to their story or their justification collapses.

all i'm saying is if you don't agree with the action, stop agreeing with the bullshit. propaganda needs to be confronted and dispelled.
i won't hide a crime in my own thinking. i won't delude myself because it is convenient. i wish they were soldiers of good and not soldiers of fortune. maybe if they had stayed in school they wouldn't have had to choose between welfare and joining the military.who knows? who cares. they are not somehow these morally superior, sainted heroes that the yellow ribbon people make them out to be.
can you even conceive of what it would be like to have haverford shelled and shot to shit by ten thousand troops?
would you care WHY they were doing it?
a lot of these people are going to come back here and become cops. good luck then.





Didymos
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May 1 2005 3:47 PM   QuickQuote Quote  
Like I said, I'm sure a lot of the soldiers are assholes. But you're stereotyping. They're not all like that. Are you going to tell a soldier who is over there because he feels like he's doing the right thing that he's no better than someone in a lynch mob?

I never said these people were saints. I just don't see all of them as mindless thugs the way that you do.
white trash dirt bag
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May 1 2005 5:29 PM   QuickQuote Quote  
Originally posted by:Lament Configuration

Like I said, I'm sure a lot of the soldiers are assholes. But you're stereotyping. They're not all like that. Are you going to tell a soldier who is over there because he feels like he's doing the right thing that he's no better than someone in a lynch mob?

I never said these people were saints. I just don't see all of them as mindless thugs the way that you do.




there are nice thugs too. hey, i grew up in a pretty lousy neighborhood and some of my friends were thugs. some became gangsters and some became cops. some even got over being that way, but these were fewer.

it's not about the individual ones being assholes or not. yeah, some of these people treat other white non -"towel-heads" very decently. they may even be great fathers, sons, etc.
its what they do to those other people over there. does that matter? maybe not.
Didymos
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May 1 2005 5:41 PM   QuickQuote Quote  
I don't exactly feel much sympathy for the terrorists and Saddam loyalists that American soldiers are killing. I do feel sympathy for civilians whose lives are affected by the war, and in the end all of the death and carnage probably are not worth the results of this war. But then again maybe it will be worth it. Time will tell.

Once again, though, I fail to see the validity of your comparison between a soldier and a thug. Even nice thugs engage in morally unjustifiable behavior. The soldiers who wind up inadvertently killing civilians don't harm innocent people as their goal.
Dwarn
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May 1 2005 6:20 PM   QuickQuote Quote  
I don't exactly feel much sympathy for the terrorists and Saddam loyalists that American soldiers are killing. I do feel sympathy for civilians whose lives are affected by the war, and in the end all of the death and carnage probably are not worth the results of this war. But then again maybe it will be worth it. Time will tell.

Once again, though, I fail to see the validity of your comparison between a soldier and a thug. Even nice thugs engage in morally unjustifiable behavior. The soldiers who wind up inadvertently killing civilians don't harm innocent people as their goal.




YOU ARE THE BRAINWASHEE AWARD WINNER OF THE WEEK.

Lament Configuration....are you serious????

How can you even remotely imagine this illegal, unconscionable war, with all the lies that were used to justify it, with all the torture and murder that WE THE PEOPLE are being forced to pay for at great expense, is, or will at any time in the future be, "worth it" ??? NO, Time will not tell!! Time has not been needed here!!! I, and millions the world over, knew BEFORE this war began, that this would turn out to be nothing less than an imperial conquest for the benefit of Israeli land thieves and American oil corporation tyrants.


Is THIS "worth it?"




How about THIS?




Does THIS make ya prouder'n'shit to be an Amurikan?






How about this unidentified US Military man who, like thousands of others, got blown up after being tricked into being shipped off to be slaughtered in a war that was started with outright lies:



This guy doesn't get his legs back even though Bush lied:




Meanwhile, at home, THIS is what our glorious Fuehrer, George W. Bush, does to people who disagree with this war enough to protest:



Blatant suppression of dissent is a sign of a a fascist police state happening right around us, right here in Amerika. Is that police state "worth it" to you???



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