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LEATHERFACE
Hail Caesar
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September 27 2011 8:22 AM   QuickQuote Quote  
Eisenhower warned us about the military-industrial complex, as did Sun Tzu: "There is not one instance of a state benefiting from prolonged warfare". A lot of it began when the War Department changed its name to the Department of Defense. Anybody will pay for "defense", not so many will pay for "war". Likewise, most people will pay for "homeland security", not so many will pay for "the gestapo". Wars are not cheap, nor is the police state. When I hear these same, corrupt individuals talk about "healthcare reform", I would have to be a fool not to think it was a euphemism for something else entirely. I'm not against universal health care, it works in my favor, but who and what are we entrusting it to? Call me crazy if you want, but experience doesn't lie. Somebody is going to be making billions off this and the poor and middle-class are still going to get fucked regardless.

It is, sadly, the American way.
crunkmoose
Fuck Nazis.
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September 29 2011 4:47 PM   QuickQuote Quote  
^I would point you to the VA, the postal service, DOT, etc.. Is there waste? Yes. Buuut... do we still get decent to good service out of these programs? Yes.

Also... still waiting for any of the teabaggers on this site, especially Matt to actually lay out a proposal for providing healthcare to all besides universal healthcare.
Kevlar Moneyclips
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September 30 2011 1:36 PM   QuickQuote Quote  
heres my proposal- federal government says "as a thank you for paying taxes, you are all now insured, up to 80,000 dollars lifetime benefits" and they pay every medical bill you will ever get, right up to that $80,000-not a penny over. Use up your whole $80,000, get pneumonia, you pay for it yourself, you get private insurance, or you die. Giving everyone who walks through the hospital door a 10,000 dollar MRI is now both bad business and life threatening. No more titanium rods for broken bones, we're going back to plaster casts. No more million dollar treatments for people who might not live- we're not bankrupting the many for the lives of the few. No more "i'm entitled to extremely expensive drugs by virtue of the fact that I was born in america"- you spend your life fat, you get a heart attack, you get one surgery. You take responsibility for your own health, and accept the fact that life is not guaranteed you by the federal government or your fellow man.
Kevlar Moneyclips
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September 30 2011 1:43 PM   QuickQuote Quote  
also- free lethal injections for anyone at any time
Bashar al-Asad
In sha'Allah
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September 30 2011 1:45 PM   QuickQuote Quote  
i'll run with that
LEATHERFACE
Hail Caesar
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September 30 2011 1:50 PM   QuickQuote Quote  
Originally posted by: crunkmoose

^I would point you to the VA, the postal service, DOT, etc.. Is there waste? Yes. Buuut... do we still get decent to good service out of these programs? Yes.

Also... still waiting for any of the teabaggers on this site, especially Matt to actually lay out a proposal for providing healthcare to all besides universal healthcare.



I was never aware of when healthcare became a fundamental human right, for one. Matt's ideal of healthcare doesn't come from any financial overhaul of the system but rather an overhaul based on morality (which cannot be legislated). The system itself is so utterly broken and entrenched in society that no viable solution will come from it, likewise morality in this nation is so fragmented that no common paradigm can even begin to surface without causing further divide. The Left wants us to become a hive mentality while the right wants us to be self-contained. The problems we face now are nothing new, almost every empire in human history faced the same dilemmas.
crunkmoose
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September 30 2011 3:04 PM   QuickQuote Quote  
Originally posted by: Kevlar Moneyclips

heres my proposal- federal government says "as a thank you for paying taxes, you are all now insured, up to 80,000 dollars lifetime benefits" and they pay every medical bill you will ever get, right up to that $80,000-not a penny over. Use up your whole $80,000, get pneumonia, you pay for it yourself, you get private insurance, or you die. Giving everyone who walks through the hospital door a 10,000 dollar MRI is now both bad business and life threatening. No more titanium rods for broken bones, we're going back to plaster casts. No more million dollar treatments for people who might not live- we're not bankrupting the many for the lives of the few. No more "i'm entitled to extremely expensive drugs by virtue of the fact that I was born in america"- you spend your life fat, you get a heart attack, you get one surgery. You take responsibility for your own health, and accept the fact that life is not guaranteed you by the federal government or your fellow man.



Not an entirely bad concept... but 80k is NOTHING for medical care if you actually get very sick... and denying treatment doesn't get us anywhere. Health care is NOT that expensive for other countries as it is here because of our particular system.
white trash dirt bag
pass the whore
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September 30 2011 3:35 PM   QuickQuote Quote  
Originally posted by: LEATHERFACE




I was never aware of when healthcare became a fundamental human right, for one.

.



i think it's all in how you want your society to be structured. in reality, nothing is really 'fundamental': slavery is natural, murder is natural, as is theft and every other crime perceived and delineated in the ancient texts from which the idea behind such 'rights' originates. in fact, it is unnatural to set up laws and ethics to forbid them in the first place, so you may say we entered that slippery slope 3,000 years ago. but the foundation of all such ideas was developed long before widespread healthcare was even conceivable, let alone healthcare for all. today our perceptions are different, and have included many things that people even as recently as 300 years ago would have thought ridiculous, let alone 3,000.

a society that heals its sick regardless of class might not be conceivable by most people even today, but that does not mean that it would not be a superior society. in the countries that do think this way, the less fortunate tend to feel more cared for, are happier, and this translates into economic terms in higher productivity and greater efficiency. it is ironic that the two most formidable axis powers that threatened all human rights during ww2, germany and japan, now both benefit, ethically and economically, from the inclusion of more 'rights' for their people - namely healthcare and higher education. funny how things work out sometimes.
LEATHERFACE
Hail Caesar
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September 30 2011 4:52 PM   QuickQuote Quote  
Good examples with germany and japan- however, the benefits they enjoy exist because neither really has any salient military to speak of, which frees up a shit ton of cash. So long as nobody rolls a war machine into their respective capitols, they function extremely well. A lot of people talk shit about North Korea for going in the opposite direction, but, then again, even the Chinese don't want to fuck with North Korea. History is filled with functioning societies that were ground into dust over night.
white trash dirt bag
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September 30 2011 5:30 PM   QuickQuote Quote  
china could squash north korea like a bug if they wanted to and no one would care, so the real question there is, why don't they want to?

also, the old 'they don't have a military' argument loses some weight when you go back to the original question of why do we have such a large military. both germany and japan once had empires like us, but they proved unsustainable. now, with membership in NATO and essentially a contract defense provided by us, they flourish. there may be a lesson in there regarding the efficacy of diplomacy, the delegation of power, and the choice of logic over ego; we get to call ourselves a 'superpower', but here we are collapsing under our own weight. perhaps a much smaller but much smarter military would serve us better. it wouldn't be able to manage a global empire, but it might be better at actually defending us from threats as they exist in 2011.
white trash dirt bag
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September 30 2011 5:40 PM   QuickQuote Quote  
also, the cbo calls it 'burdensharing', but both germany and japan pay out quite a bit for u.s. and NATO protection. not as much perhaps as having their own military industrial complexes, but it's not like they're getting it for free.







SIPRI Military Expenditure Database

This list is based on the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI) Military Expenditure Database for 2010 (in constant 2009 ). It also includes military expenditure data as a percentage of gross domestic product (GDP) in 2009.


1 United States..........698,105,000,000 4.7%
2 China.....................114,000,000,000 2.2%
3 France.....................61,285,000,000 2.5%
4 United Kingdom..........57,424,000,000 2.7%
5 Russia......................52,586,000,000 4.3%
6 Japan.......................51,420,000,000 1.0%
7 Germany...................46,848,000,000 1.4%
8 Saudi Arabia..............39,200,000,000 11.2%
9 Italy........................38,303,000,000 1.8%
10 India........................36,030,000,000 1.8%
11 Brazil........................27,120,000,000 1.6%
12 Australia...................26,900,000,000 1.9%
13 South Korea..............26,550,000,000 2.9%
14 Spain.......................25,507,470,000 1.1%
15 Turkey.....................25,000,000,000 2.7%
16 Canada.....................21,800,000,000 1.5%
17 Israel.......................16,000,000,000 6.3%
18 United Arab Emirates...15,749,000,000 7.3%
crunkmoose
Fuck Nazis.
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October 1 2011 7:19 AM   QuickQuote Quote  
^Over 6 times what the number 2 spends... and the number two is the one everyone quotes as being our only threat. Cut our budget in half... we would still outspend them 3 to 1.
LEATHERFACE
Hail Caesar
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October 1 2011 9:59 AM   QuickQuote Quote  
"china could squash north korea like a bug if they wanted to and no one would care, so the real question there is, why don't they want to?"


I seriously doubt anybody could 'squash them like a bug', it is the most fortified nation on earth. What would you do? Bomb them? They suffered the worst bombing campaign in history and spent the last half century preparing for the next. Invade? Shit, you could hand any citizen in that country a rock, point them in the direction of the enemy, and they would attack. Only they have a lot more than rocks. Nuclear or chemical weapons would be the only options, and even then there isn't any guarantee given nobody knows exactly how big the underground NK system is or how deep it goes. Nukes and chems would definitely make people give a shit, regardless of the nation in question.
white trash dirt bag
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October 1 2011 11:59 AM   QuickQuote Quote  
are you seriously that naive? china could take them in a week with a million air and ground forces if it wanted to [it was already there during the korean war], and if it wanted to nuke them, i'm sure it would be pretty easy to fabricate a justification with loose-nut kim at the helm and the media blackout both enjoy. and people would give a shit? really? and do what? write them a nasty letter? help them out like we helped out tibet? send in the u.n.? or do what they did when we went into iraq - nothing. the last few decades have made nothing more clear than the fact that our foreign policy is dictated by personal interest and not morality. if china wanted to make north korea its iraq, they could and we would do nothing. oh yeah, i'm sure there would be plenty of dramatically posed outrage, with photo-ops and sound bytes out on the wire, but at the end of the day, we only act when there is oil or money we can get our hands on involved. so yeah, china could bomb the shit out of them and the worst we would ever even think of doing is refuse to pay off the interest on our debt that month. but the following month, when we lined up to borrow more, we'd be sucking their dick like nothing had happened. that, or let our economy and the world economy collapse, something else a country as self-sufficient as china could probably ride out quite well.

so again, the real question is, why don't they? has north korea just not poked the tiger next to them enough, or is china playing at some kind of 'good communist/bad communist' routine? do they have naked pictures of mao? or do they not need to, because they already have. who knows. but it's definitely not because they can't. no offense, but that's one of the dumbest things i've seen an otherwise intelligent person say recently.
LEATHERFACE
Hail Caesar
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October 1 2011 1:35 PM   QuickQuote Quote  
Originally posted by: white trash dirt bag

are you seriously that naive? china could take them in a week with a million air and ground forces if it wanted to [it was already there during the korean war], and if it wanted to nuke them, i'm sure it would be pretty easy to fabricate a justification with loose-nut kim at the helm and the media blackout both enjoy. and people would give a shit? really? and do what? write them a nasty letter? help them out like we helped out tibet? send in the u.n.? or do what they did when we went into iraq - nothing. the last few decades have made nothing more clear than the fact that our foreign policy is dictated by personal interest and not morality. if china wanted to make north korea its iraq, they could and we would do nothing. oh yeah, i'm sure there would be plenty of dramatically posed outrage, with photo-ops and sound bytes out on the wire, but at the end of the day, we only act when there is oil or money we can get our hands on involved. so yeah, china could bomb the shit out of them and the worst we would ever even think of doing is refuse to pay off the interest on our debt that month. but the following month, when we lined up to borrow more, we'd be sucking their dick like nothing had happened. that, or let our economy and the world economy collapse, something else a country as self-sufficient as china could probably ride out quite well.

so again, the real question is, why don't they? has north korea just not poked the tiger next to them enough, or is china playing at some kind of 'good communist/bad communist' routine? do they have naked pictures of mao? or do they not need to, because they already have. who knows. but it's definitely not because they can't. no offense, but that's one of the dumbest things i've seen an otherwise intelligent person say recently.



Good heavens, where to even begin with this... The minute china storms over the border the immediate North Korean response would be to expand the conflict, just like Hussein tried to do during the Iran/Iraq war. Man, you're really one to be a judge of intelligence, I tell ya....
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